In conversation, part 3

SL The Aussies are peaking nicely.

KF That’s the thing, they get it right for the World Cup nearly every time. Are you worried?

CM Well, they’ve found a scrum in the space of five or six weeks.

SL Their scrum is pretty good now, but still I would favour New Zealand’s scrum . . . just.

KF The Aussie backs are impressive.

SL They are just fantastic, and to beat the All Blacks even without James O’Connor . . . It was quite interesting, when Will Genia (Australia’s scrum-half) talked up Piri Weepu (the All Blacks scrum-half) too. I’m faster than Piri Weepu now with one good hip. He’s got a brilliant rugby mind, but Genia was saying the All Blacks must start Piri Weepu. Where did the Wallabies score? Around the guard area. You saw when Genia made the break for the last try, Weepu was left floundering. He was gone and the lack of a class act at nine is a problem. We’ve got Jimmy Cowan, a tough Southlander, Piri Weepu, very clever, and Andrew Ellis playing behind the machine that is the Crusaders pack, but there’s no Will Genia, there’s no Du Preez, there’s no Mike Blair, Chris Cusiter, Rory Lawson. The All Blacks haven’t got that nine.

KF Other countries that can make an impact? The defending champions have looked hopeless by their standards but …

SL Never write the Springboks off. Never write France off either. They love going to New Zealand.

KF Why are France so comfortable there.

SL They respect rugby there and they just enjoy it. They have a healthy relationship with the All Blacks and like to challenge themselves against what they see as the best. They rise to the occasion.

CM Even in 2009 they went down to New Zealand with a pretty average team, leaving a lot of boys at home, and still won a Test.

KF Not a mention yet of the European champions. Are England contenders?

SL What has transformed England almost by accident is Manu Tuilagi.

CM A bit like Sonny Bill Williams for the All Blacks, he has the ability to create a hole and score tries which England have maybe lacked in their midfield previously.

SL Mike Tindall does a good job there too. He’s a 12 with lots of experience, a good kicking game, good defender, good leader, the players like him, he makes good decisions and I would have Tuilagi before Sonny Bill any day. I think Sonny Bill is more impact, all about himself, but the All Black coaches are now wondering.

CM Ma’a Nonu is coming on to a game as well now.

SL Also Sonny Bill is now saying he may not re-sign for the All Blacks. He was supposed to sign before the World Cup. Now he’s holding his decision until after the World Cup. He’s very individual with his boxing and all that. Whereas this Tuilagi, what a player, the way he just brushed people off to score that try at the weekend.

KF So is it going to be wholly predictable, with the only contenders coming from the big five?

CM You can look at all the pools and identify the winners theoretically. Admittedly, in Scotland’s pool, two or three have a chance, but elsewhere in other pools there

could be upsets. Tonga, for example, can knock over France.

KF Is that also a dangerous opening game for the All Blacks, then, because the Tongans will be so fired up they might take a couple of players out of the tournament?

CM No, I think the two All Black losses are bad for Tonga.

SL I wouldn’t want to be Tonga. I think they’ll get smashed. There’s an underlying, not so much subservience, but they just know the All Blacks are much better. The best Tongans play for the All Blacks.

CM It’s a funny thing. It’s different when the island teams play European teams. The All Blacks don’t have the same fear factor against them. Whereas there is that soft underbelly with your Englands, your Scotlands and your Irelands … although a few of them play over here now.

KF Other minnows who can cause upsets?

CM Japan are going to be interesting. They’ve beaten Tonga and Fiji away.

SL They’ve got at least eight non-Japanese in their team too: a couple of islanders and a couple of Kiwis.

CM It’s all getting more competitive. The only team in my mind that’s really gone backwards is Canada. They don’t have enough boys playing abroad. Alright, the same is true of Japan, but they bring a lot of people into their game, but Tonga, Samoa, Argentina, the majority of those guys are playing in Europe.

KF Are World Cups a chance for us to suss out players who might be brought to Scotland?

SL They are, but obviously only for the pro teams because by definition they can’t play for Scotland. For the pro teams it is useful but ideally you want to get them before the World Cup. I’ve had a tip-off that there’s one player playing for a certain country who is very, very good and we could get him on the

cheap now, but after the World Cup it will be different.

CM A decent World Cup can add a lot to your value.

SL The players know that. Especially the players in the smaller countries.

KF Will this be a World Cup that can transform the image of rugby?

SL Having a World Cup out there, just to see what it means to everyone, will be huge. I think the way rugby is going now, the actual game itself is getting better again as a spectacle. As long as the contact area and the scrums don’t become too much of a blight. We’ve got to make sure the refs deal with it. We can’t have reset scrum, upon reset scrum, upon reset. The evidence of the warm-up matches is good. The referees are not taking any rubbish. We just want them to get the ball out and play. That’s where Australia beat New Zealand, though, they double-tackled everything and flooded the contact.

KF David Pocock got the better of Richie McCaw.

CM Yes, but then McCaw hasn’t played that many games this year and in the Super 15 final he was probably one of the worst players on the park, dropping the ball and losing it in contact.

SL Pocock stripped the ball off him when Samo scored their 60-metre try. He just ripped it out of his hands.

KF Is it possible that the All Blacks could leave Richie McCaw out of any big games?

SL Absolutely no chance. There’s more chance of me saying Cammy’s got blond hair.

CM Or me saying that Sean’s got a Scottish granny.