LORD EMSLIE talks to the Glasgow Herald in a major interview, the
first since he retired as Lord President and Lord Justice General and
his first newspaper interview for 17 years. He talks frankly about why
he retired, and gives his views on the Guildford Four case. He tells why
he disagrees with Lord McCluskey about asking the victims of crime what
sentence should be passed and fires a broadside at Government proposals
for law reform in Scotland.
By BRUCE McKAIN, Law Correspondent
THE law is no respecter of persons, even a newly retired Lord
President and Lord Justice General, as Lord Emslie found out the other
week when he was breathalysed by police after an accident which damaged
his car but fortunately left him unscathed.
The breath test was negative, but it crossed his mind that if he had
stayed on as head of the Scottish judiciary, which he could have done
for another six years, he would have been sitting safely in court
instead of being out for a drive.
He had decided, however, for a number of reasons that the time had
come to bow out gracefully after 17 years in the hotseat in the way that
Judges in Scotland do, without fuss, fanfare, gold watch or embarrassing
speeches.
''I thought it was only reasonable to give my wife a chance to lead
what other people would call a normal life. I also had the curious
notion that I would like to retire before I reached 70. I felt it was
perhaps a good example to set.
''Some Judges can go on without having suffered any impairment of
function -- Lord Cameron is a particularly fine example -- but it
doesn't apply to everybody and I don't think it's a bad thing that a
Judge who has given long service should go before there's any trace of
going downhill. I hope in my case I went before I reached that stage.''
He always felt that the senior Judge should set the tone for the rest
of the Bench. ''I think it is very important that the lead comes from
the top. An example is set of the way a Judge ought to behave in court
and the discipline of the profession is really dictated very much by the
example the President sets. It is important that you have the confidence
of the Judges. They must know that you can do their job as well as they
can.''
The Scottish Judges are frequently criticised for being too
conservative in using their position to influence the development of the
law and it was once said of Lord Emslie that he was no Lord Denning, a
comment he does not necessarily regard as a reproach.
''I think a Lord President can influence the law, although not perhaps
in Denning's way, and I think Denning had very much more to change in
England than we had in Scotland.
''You become conscious of areas where you think the law has taken a
wrong turning and one of the ambitions of a good Lord Justice General is
to look for opportunities to put the law back on the rails from which it
seems to have escaped perhaps 40 years before. Contempt of court is one
example, because I thought the law had got totally out of hand.''
Another frequent complaint in Scotland is that because we lack any
coherent sentencing policy the punishment meted in a particular case
depends far too much on the whim of the individual Judge.
''Judges meet every morning, informally, and Judges talk among
themselves,'' Lord Emslie points out. We do discuss sentences or a range
of sentences which seem to be appropriate and the Lord Justice Clerk
sets an example when he deals with cases in the High Court. The appeal
court can also influence the attitude of the Judges.
''But no two cases are ever alike. It's easy enough to say: 'Well for
this particular crime one man got five years and the next man got nine
years.' But if you look at the circumstances you can usually justify the
differences. We don't do what the English do and have guidelines. I
think these tend to fetter the discretion of Judges and I don't approve
of them at all.''
The rationale behind sentencing has been highlighted recently by Lord
McCluskey's attempt to ask the victim of a vicious sexual assault her
opinion about the appropriate sentence for her attacker, not an idea of
which Lord Emslie approves.
''Sentences shouldn't reflect the desire for vengeance which you often
find in public opinion, but you've always got to be conscious of the
things that are worrying the public. If you have particular crimes which
seem to be on the increase you have to take account of that if the
social consequences are serious.
''I think that explains why we took a strong line with sentences in
drug trafficking and why we still take a strong line in sexual offences,
because they cause enormous distress to the victims and the public is
obviously out for blood. We are not there to produce the blood the
public wants but we do what we can to try to deter insofar as sentences
can deter.''
Was Lord McCluskey not trying to make the point that we don't pay
enough attention to the victims of crime?
''I don't think that's true at all. I think every Judge is very
conscious of the consequences to the victim. But there's no point in
asking the victim (about sentence). Some victims might want to let the
chap off completely because they have a forgiving nature. Others might
want every ounce of blood they can get. I don't think you can do that.
All you can do is to take very careful note of the consequences to the
victim and in deciding on the appropriate sentence you never shut your
eyes to that.
''Even a simple housebreaking can have a colossal effect on the people
concerned. Their house has been invaded, their privacy has gone, very
often there's the most awful mess left by the less professional
housebreakers and things are never quite the same again.''
There has been much discussion about whether the Guildford Four case
could have happened in Scotland where we require confessions to be
supported by other evidence. Lord Emslie takes the view that in Scotland
the balance between the rights of the accused and the interests of the
State in detecting and prosecuting crime is about right.
''I don't think you want to load the law in favour of the criminal any
further. Nor do I think it is a good idea to take away some of the
protections which are there, because you see perfectly well from
examples in England recently what happens when police are over
enthusiastic and embellish statements to make them even better.
''Of course, I am not suggesting for a minute that police always
fabricate evidence but it does happen and I think our system is able to
cope with that, more or less. But if evidence goes before a jury it is
entirely up to the jury to decide whether to believe the competing
accounts of what happened.''
''If the Crown's case starts with a clear confession which has all the
ring of truth about it, you've got to find some other touchstone with
which to test the truth of that. You probably don't need very much and
the law never demanded very much more than that.''
So could Guildford have happened in Scotland? ''I don't think there
would have been a prosecution in Scotland. It's not a question of
whether they would have been convicted. There was not a grain of
evidence except the confessions.''
One of the most burdensome parts of a Lord Justice General's job is
presiding over appeals, an area in which there has been an explosion of
business. It has been suggested that it is a waste of time and resources
for senior Judges to spend hours listening, for example, to a case of
cycling without lights in Elgin. Lord Emslie doesn't agree.
''As long as we can afford to do it I would like to keep it. I don't
think the public would continue to accept summary justice in the sheriff
court if they didn't have an absolute right to challenge conviction in
the High Court.
''It does impose a huge burden on us and so many of the cases are
really worthless and you get case after case, hopeless appeals, all of
which take time all of which have got to be read. I used to reckon it
took two full days' work over the weekend to read appeal papers before
the court sat.
''But I think it's worth it. You sometimes find even when legal aid
has been refused and solicitors have withdrawn that some terrible thing
has happened which really puts a question mark over the handling of the
case in the court below.''
Our appeal system has been criticised by commentators such as Ludovic
Kennedy for its limitations and inability to prevent miscarriages of
justice. Lord Emslie says: ''I don't think it's ever possible to devise
a human system which would eliminate all possiblity of a miscarriage of
justice. There is no doubt that they do happen. There are bound to be
cases where there is a very strong feeling that something has gone
wrong.
''But I think it is better that the jury should continue to be the
judges of fact. They have heard the evidence and even if you read the
notes of evidence and say, 'Well, I can't really understand why the jury
have accepted this,' the law says that they are the judges of fact and
the Judge's opinion of whether or not a witness ought to have been
believed really can't carry much weight.''
As far as civil business in the supreme court is concerned, Scolag,
the magazine of the Scottish Legal Action Group, called for reforms in
the Court of Session, commenting that ''there is much needing to be done
as the disappointing Emslie era comes to an end.''
The man responsible for the Emslie era replies: ''I think we have
achieved a most remarkable efficiency in the disposal of business in
spite of the increasing demands of criminal trials.
''If you can get a case to proof within six months of the time when
parties have settled their pleadings that's just about the optimum. We
once got it down to four months before crime began to explode and I was
inundated with complaints from solicitors that there wasn't enough time
to get their cases properly prepared.
''The principal clerk and I both took the view that running a court
was like running a business. You had to make it work in a cost-effective
way.''
There are strains on the system, particularly with Lord Cullen away
for a year or more at Piper Alpha, but Lord Emslie does not think the
appointment of more Judges is the answer.
''I've always felt that Scotland could only really sustain a Supreme
Court Bench of 25. You are not going to find enough Judges of the right
quality if you go beyond that number. At the moment we have 24 and one
is full time at the Law Commission. I would be very reluctant to see the
number of full-time Judges increased, particularly if we can, by making
the Judges work harder, get through business as well as we do. I am not
in the least bit ashamed of what has happened. In fact I think we have
achieved a tremendous amount.
''When I took over from Lord Clyde, the Court of Session and the High
Court were two separate, watertight, self-contained institutions and the
administrative heads of these two courts didn't speak to each other.
They quarrelled about the use of Judges and eventually they trotted
along to me.
''I decided this was just nonsense and it seemed to me that what we
wanted was a unified administration in a pyramid with somebody managing
the system at the top. There was no management whatsoever, there was no
staff training, there was no proper organisation of the business of the
court at all.
''I managed to persuade the Government very early on to create a new
post of Principal Clerk of Session and Justiciary and we also decided
that all the clerks ought to be able to do both Court of Session and
justiciary (criminal) work.
''I wish I could say I foresaw the explosion of crime but it was done
really for reasons of improving quality. If we hadn't done that we would
never have been able to cope with the explosion of crime at all.
''If I am remembered for anything I would like to be remembered for
having really taken the organisation of the courts by the scruff of the
neck.''
Lord Emslie is confident that our legal system has a healthy future,
but is singularly unimpressed by the recent reforms put forward by the
Government in its white paper, particularly the proposal to allow
solicitors to appear in the supreme courts. He says it would diminish
the quality of justice the public is entitled to expect.
''I have very strong views on this and I expressed them in a very
forthright way to the Secretary of State. But I have a suspicion that
the consultation process was a bit of a charade and we are being dragged
along on the coat-tails of the English.
''I have never yet in all my experience seen a case conducted to a
standard acceptable in the supreme court by a solicitor. They don't have
the technique, they don't think a case through properly before they
begin and in the Inner House (appeals in the Court of Session) if you
get a sheriff court appeal it will be a miracle if the pleadings allow
you to do what you think ought to have been the right thing to do.''
Solicitors will, of course, point out that by no means all of the
advocates currently practising at the Bar are out of the top drawer.
''That's perfectly true,'' concedes Lord Emslie. ''On the other hand,
with any luck, they don't get involved in too many things that matter.
''It's interesting that solicitors who come to the Bar, and a lot of
them have in the past two or three years, have stated that the standards
expected of them are infinitely higher than standards in the sheriff
court. An advocate is subjected to a much more rigorous public
examination than he ever gets in the sheriff court. The full-time
professional is what is required for the kind of work which is done in
the Court of Session and it ought to be the same in the High Court.''
Lord Emslie agrees that one of the major problems facing the system is
that many people simply cannot afford to use it. ''The only way that can
be done, it seems to me, is to provide adequate funding for it.
''I would like to see legal aid on a very much wider scale so that
no-one can complain he hasn't got an opportunity of access to the
courts. That's what government ought to be doing, improving access to
the courts, instead of tinkering with a system which I think works as
efficiently as most systems can work.''
Why are you making commenting on The Herald only available to subscribers?
It should have been a safe space for informed debate, somewhere for readers to discuss issues around the biggest stories of the day, but all too often the below the line comments on most websites have become bogged down by off-topic discussions and abuse.
heraldscotland.com is tackling this problem by allowing only subscribers to comment.
We are doing this to improve the experience for our loyal readers and we believe it will reduce the ability of trolls and troublemakers, who occasionally find their way onto our site, to abuse our journalists and readers. We also hope it will help the comments section fulfil its promise as a part of Scotland's conversation with itself.
We are lucky at The Herald. We are read by an informed, educated readership who can add their knowledge and insights to our stories.
That is invaluable.
We are making the subscriber-only change to support our valued readers, who tell us they don't want the site cluttered up with irrelevant comments, untruths and abuse.
In the past, the journalist’s job was to collect and distribute information to the audience. Technology means that readers can shape a discussion. We look forward to hearing from you on heraldscotland.com
Comments & Moderation
Readers’ comments: You are personally liable for the content of any comments you upload to this website, so please act responsibly. We do not pre-moderate or monitor readers’ comments appearing on our websites, but we do post-moderate in response to complaints we receive or otherwise when a potential problem comes to our attention. You can make a complaint by using the ‘report this post’ link . We may then apply our discretion under the user terms to amend or delete comments.
Post moderation is undertaken full-time 9am-6pm on weekdays, and on a part-time basis outwith those hours.
Read the rules hereComments are closed on this article