Unions condemn Salmond 'snub'

Among the group's concerns is how the country's shipbuilding industry would be supported after a Yes vote.

The delegation gave evidence about the talks to Westminster's Scottish Affairs Committee at a meeting at Glasgow City Halls today.

Jim Moohan, chairman of CSEU Scotland, told the committee: "We from the outset requested to meet with the First Minster, because he is the voice of the Scottish Government.

"It's been disappointing he's not given us the respect of sitting at the table with us."

Kenny Jordan, regional secretary of CSEU Scotland, added: "It has led us to believe that we're shuffled away down the pack as far as priority is concerned."

Asked if they had felt "snubbed", Mr Jordan replied: "Yes, we do. From the outset we believe they haven't taken our quest seriously."

Duncan McPhee, Unite convener at BAE Systems Scotstoun, said he had questioned Mr Brown on what work Glasgow's shipyards would receive in an independent Scotland.

He said he thought the response - that the UK Government would have no choice but to continue to place orders for complex naval ships on the Clyde because it was the only place that could do the work - was "insulting" to other shipyards in the UK.

Mr McPhee said: "I don't accept that for one minute.

"If there's a political decision for the UK Government to stick to their policy of building these ships in the UK, then unless the Scottish Government are going to attract some other private company or nationalise the shipyards on the Clyde and supply them with work, then I don't see what the future is for the shipyards."

Raymond Duguid, DIJC chairman at Babcock Marine, Rosyth, said he had asked Mr Brown why the Scottish Government believes the UK Government would continue to build warships in Scotland, a foreign country, after independence.

He said: "He did not answer that and that was a concern."

Mr Duguid said he did not agree that the ships could not be built anywhere else but in Scotland.

He said: "It's a political decision and that is done to sustain sovereign capability. We might be the best, but if we're a foreign country that won't matter."

A Scottish Government spokesman said: "The Deputy First Minister, Finance Secretary John Swinney and Veterans Minister Keith Brown, as well as civil servants, have all met with the shipbuilding unions over the last year, both on the subject of independence and on the current process of redundancies being undertaken by BAE systems and the UK Government.

"In fact the Deputy First Minister and Mr Swinney met trade unions the day after redundancies were announced. Mr Jordan wrote to the First Minister on the 4th June requesting a meeting with 'appropriate Scottish Government Ministers', which Mr Brown readily accepted and this meeting took place yesterday.

"Scottish yards are the best place to produce the Type 26 ships. Quite simply, these vessels should be built in the Clyde yards as it offers the best quality and value for money. Joint procurement is something that is in the interests of both Scotland and the rest of the UK, going elsewhere would leave UK taxpayers with a huge additional bill.

"An independent Scotland's defence and security budget would be £2.5 billion a year, that's more than Westminster spends on defence in Scotland, but still a saving on taxpayers' current contribution to UK defence spending. And our plans to reindustrialise Scotland by growing manufacturing industries by 30% by 2030 can only help strengthen our yards."

The delegation later said it had also raised concerns about the future of the Faslane base and around 10,000-15,000 jobs linked to it in the event of independence.

Mr Moohan said: "There's no vision, no strategy.

"Faslane will disappear. What will it be replaced with? It will just be countryside. That's the answer from the Scottish Government."

He added: "We got answers, all of them were very unclear."

The view was echoed by Jim Thomson, Unite convenor at Selex ES in Edinburgh, who said the Scottish Government's response to his concerns had been "thin, vague, uncertain".

But Jamie Webster, GMB convenor at BAE Systems Govan, said he believed the UK Government would choose to continue to build ships in Scotland in the event of a Yes vote.

He said: "My viewpoint is that they will still be built on the Clyde, those contracts, regardless of whether its a Yes or No vote.

"There will be dialogue, in the event of a Yes vote, between the UK Government and the Scottish Government.

"I've no doubt whatsoever... that there will be the expectation of a defence pact."

The delegation said they had asked for urgent written answers to their concerns, which they expect by the end of the week.

The committee later heard from Joanne Segars, chief executive of the National Association of Pension Funds, who was asked about the future of pension schemes which would become cross-border schemes after independence.

She said one of the biggest issues facing pension providers was what would happen in the event of an independent Scotland becoming a member of the EU.

EU rules require cross-border pension schemes to be fully funded at all times.

She said: "Schemes might face some very tough decisions. Whether or not to close the scheme, whether or not perhaps to split the scheme so a UK scheme had a UK and Scottish section, or whether to continue as a cross-border scheme but to fund that scheme fully at all times in compliance with EU legislation.

"These are not insignificant decisions, and they are not insignificant decisions because, however they are looked at, they have significant costs."

The costs for splitting a scheme could run from tens of thousands for small schemes to hundreds of thousands for larger schemes, she said.

The costs for moving to a fully funded scheme would be "very significant indeed", she said, as most schemes in the UK operate at a deficit, with an average recovery period of seven and a half years.

Ms Segars said: "Those recovery periods would have to be brought forward very, very quickly indeed by very significant injections of cash from the employer.

"These aren't trivial decisions at all and so, faced with that, some schemes, some employers, may just say 'We're going to close the scheme'."

She said around 3,000 schemes of about 6,500 in the UK would become cross-border schemes as a result of independence.